05.07.2015 New Testament: John 1.14
To read the Bible in a year, read John 1.1–28 on May 7, In the year of our Lord 2015
By Don Ruhl
The opening line of the Gospel According to John boggles us with its declaration, telling us that the Word was God, and then John goes further with this magnificent truth,
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth (John 1.14).
The Word was God and the Word became flesh. How could that be? Why did He do it? He dwelt among us! He lived as we live! He experienced what we experience.
Although He became flesh and lived as a man, we could still see His divine glory coming through, showing His grace and truth. Jesus of Nazareth was the Word and He became flesh!
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Love John 1:14. The Greek word for “dwelt” literally means “to pitch a tent (tabernacle)”. Connect that to what God said in Exodus 29:43-45 and you get some good stuff. John always dealt up some raw truth about Jesus for a religiously cooked world.
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Overall, John is my favorite biblical writer.
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There is written in the Bible that the Word, not God became flesh. The Word is the speaking, not a person, is it not. and here at the opening of John’s writings he is comparing the New World to the old world and looks at the Beginning of universe where God spoke and it came into being. So also God spoke and Jesus was promised (in the Garden of Eden) and Jesus came into the flesh some 2000 years ago. Jesus according God’s Word is the son of God and not Himself.
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Marcus, If we read John 1.1, the apostle said, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Then in verse 14, John wrote further, “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”
Based on the narrative in John 1, can we not conclude the following?
The Word was God.
The Word became flesh.
Therefore, God became flesh.
What do you think of that reasoning?
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The word is the speaking, not a person?
“And the heaven was open; and I saw a white horse, and he who was seated on it was named Certain and True; and he is judging and making war in righteousness. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he is clothed in a robe washed with blood: and his name is The Word of God…And on his robe and on his leg is a name, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Revelation 19:11-13, 16)
Same author. Same title used. Same individual under consideration. Same conclusion.
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The apostle John looking at the New World, comparing it to the Old World wrote his book in the manner of Moses his Bereshith where he started with God speaking and coming into being. In the book of Genesis we also do find God promising a solution for the Fall of man, which is the Messiah, who we consider to be Jeshua from Nazareth, born in Bethlehem, better known today as Jesus Christ.
Yah Chanan writes: (Gospel of John 1:1-3): In the beginning the Word having been and the Word having been unto God and God having been the Word he having been, in the beginning, unto God all through his hand became: and without him not even one being whatever became. (Aramaic New Covenant; ANCJ Released: 1996 Contents: New Testament Source Used: Exegeses Bibles (1996) Location: Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom) which could also be presented in English as:
“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” (NWT)
“The Word was in the beginning, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God.” (The New Testament in An Improved Version)
“In the beginning existed the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was a god.” (The Monotessaron)
“In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.” (Emphatic Diaglott – interlineary side)
1. Christ was not literally the Word. He was the word “made flesh”. (#Jo 1:14). The Greek word “logos” translated “Word” expresses the divine intention, mind, or purpose.1 Young defines “logos” as “a word, speech, matter, reason.”2 In the a.v. “logos” is translated by more than 20 different English words and is used for utterances of men (e.g., #Jo 17:20) as well as those of God (#Jo 5:38).
2. “In the beginning was the Word … all things were made by him.”3 “logos” does not in itself denote personality. It is personified by the masculine gender in the a.v., The Diaglott avoids confusion by translating the pronouns in the neuter-“through it every thing was done.”4 An Old Testament parallel to the personification of logos is the personification of wisdom: “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.” (#Pr 8:22, 23). In this passage, wisdom is personified as a woman. (#Pr 8:1, 2).
3. “All things were made by him”-John is apparently alluding to the creation recorded in Genesis. God spoke, and it was done (e.g. “And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.” (#Ge 1:3). Notice another allusion- #Jo 1:7, 8). But this creation was not accompanied by Christ, but by the “logos” of God. This is indicated by several passages:
a. “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.” “For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.” (#Ps 33:6, 9). See also #Ps 107:20; 147:15, 18, 19; Isa. 55:11).
b. ” … by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water … But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” (#2Pe 3:5, 7).
c. See also (#Heb 11:3) cf. (#Jer 10:12, 13).5
4.Angels, prophets and Christ have been vehicles by which God has expressed his logos. Christ is the complete manifestation of the logos-“in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” (#Col 2:9). It was the “logos” which was in the beginning with God, not Christ. When the “word was made flesh” (#Jo 1:14) then, and then only, Christ became the “Word”. Christ is called the Word (#Re 19:13) cf. (#1Jo 1:1; Lu 1:2) since his doctrine and words came from his Father (#Jo 7:16; 17:14). He was the logos lived out in speech and action, not merely written on scrolls.
+ Notes:
1 This can be supported by evaluating all references to “logos” in the New Testament and the Septuagint.
2 Robert Young, Analytical Concordance to the Holy Bible, (London: Lutterworth Press, 1965). a.v. Authorized King James Version of the Bible e.g. For example
3 It is sometimes argued that the “beginning” referred to in John 1:1 is the beginning of Christ’s ministry. 1 John 1:1 is offered in support of this interpretation. It should be noted, however, that John’s allusions in John 1 are drawn from Genesis 1 as point 3 outlines, thereby implying that the beginning refers to the same narrative and not to the ministry of Christ.
4 Benjamin Wilson, The Emphatic Diaglott, (Brooklyn: International Bible Students Ass., Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1942).
5 It is also noteworthy that although the writer to the Hebrews speaks in exalted terms of Christ (e.g. “express image of his {God’s } person”-#Heb 1:3), “logos” is used of God’s message, and not of Christ himself. See (#Heb 2:2; 4:2,12; 7:28; 12:19) and (#Heb 13:7, 22).
It is the speaking of God, God His Word which came into the flesh, meaning His promise in the Garden of Eden and in later stadia in history of mankind became a man of flesh and blood, born in Bethlehem, from a young girl, to whom the Spirit of God had told she was chosen by god to fulfil that task.
“3 So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the {1} rudiments of the world: {1) Or [elements]; 2 Pe 3:10, 12} 4 but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 that he might redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 So that thou art no longer a bondservant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.” (Galatians 4:3-7 ASV)
“30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found {1} favor with God. {1) Or [grace]} 31 And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob {1} for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. {1) Gr [unto the ages]} 34 And Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also {1} the holy thing which is begotten {2} shall be called the Son of God. {1) Or [that which is to be born shall be called holy, the Son of God] 2) Some ancient authorities insert [of thee]}” (Luke 1:30-35 ASV)
It is not because we can conclude that “the Word was God” or that “the word was a god” and that “The Word became flesh” therefore, God would have become flesh. That God about Whom Scriptures say the Bible is His Word and that He does not tell lies He Himself told us that Jesus is His sent one and His only begotten beloved son.
“21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23 And Jesus himself, when he began [to teach], was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the [son] of Heli,” (Luke 3:21-23 ASV)
To me that is making it also very clear that Jesus is the son of God and not God Himself.
What use would it have God coming to earth in the form of man and faking that he was tempted and faking His death?
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Marcus,
The Greek text of John 1.1 reads literally in this manner, “In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the Word.”
You have intentionally used an upper case “G” when referring to the Father, and a lower case “g” when referring to the Word, saying that He was or is a god, so that you end up worshiping God and a god.
Also, in the following verses John made himself clear that he spoke of the Creator, because all things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. Therefore, in Him was the life, and the life was the light of men (verses 3 and 4).
John wrote of the Word as being with God and as being God, and that the Word created all things, and that the Word came and dwelt among us, and as you continue to read those opening lines of John 1, you know that John spoke of Jesus of Nazareth, who was the Word, who was with God and who is God.
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What would you reply to these questions:
1. Do you believe the bible is God’s infallible Word?
2. Do you think God goes behind the truth and can or shall tell lies?
3. Do you think God is the Most almighty Who knows everything?
4. Do you think God can do everything from His own?
5. do you think god wants us to say always how things are or can we just hide the truth and not sin?
6. Do you think Jesus ever sinned?
I am curious for your answers.
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1. Do you believe the bible is God’s infallible Word?
Yes, I believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers to insure that they would reveal the truth, and not error, as Jesus promised the apostles (John 16.13-15).
2. Do you think God goes behind the truth and can or shall tell lies?
God cannot lie (Tts 1.2).
3. Do you think God is the Most almighty Who knows everything?
He is God Almighty. He is omniscient, as Psalm 139 shows.
4. Do you think God can do everything from His own?
I do not understand this question. Are you asking does He have the power to do things? Yes, of course, otherwise, He would not be God.
5. do you think god wants us to say always how things are or can we just hide the truth and not sin?
If He cannot lie, and if He wants us to be like Him, then we cannot lie either. Revelation 21.8 says that all liars shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.
6. Do you think Jesus ever sinned?
Jesus knew no sin, in the sense that He did not know sin by experience (2Co 5.21).
Questions for you, Marcus:
1. Did the Holy Spirit guide John into the truth when the apostle wrote that the Word was God, that all things were made through Him, that in Him was life, and that the Word became flesh, and that the Word was Jesus of Nazareth?
2. Can anyone create from nothing (Heb 11.3) in addition to God, or can only God create from nothing?
3. Can God choose not to know something or even not to remember something, or is He unable to control His knowledge?
4. Do you believe that God is Almighty, the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last?
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Nice to hear you agreed on the 3 first questions. Question 4 was about the omnipotent all-knowing God Who does not need any body to do something.
Those questions were all to compare with Christ Jesus who said the Father was greater than him and he could not do anything without God.
Your question probably refers to the gospel-writer John who was like other biblical writers inspired by the Spirit i.e. the Force of God (not some other part of a three headed god). This apostle wanted to write his gospel in the same manner as the scrolls of the old covenant, but now the apostle saw the new covenant and looked at the New Word. He starts off like in the bereshith and looks at the creation of the New World where he consider Jesus the new (or 2nd Adam) He refers to the Godof Abraham Who spoke in the beginning. By god His speaking, His Word everything came into being. But also in the Garden of Eden, after the Fall of man, God spoke to Adam and Eve and promised them a solution against death. This Word spoken in that Garden, long before Abraham was born, Was God’s Word but was also the promise of the Messiah Jesus. As such some 2000 years ago the Word spoken by od became a reality by the Holy Spirit making it that Mary became pregnant. As such the Word (the speaking of God) became in the flesh and Jesus got born. He had a beginning, first as the promise and than as the being on earth, a man who could be seen by many, though they did not fall death.
God, Who does not tell lies lets us know that God is an eternal Spirit (= no beginning, no end, > cannot die) who can not be seen by man or they would die. God also He cannot be tempted and that man nor death can do HIm anything.
You agreed that God did not tell lies so what about those sayings:
“And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for man shall not see me and live.” (Exodus 33:20 ASV)
“Hear, O Israel: {1} Jehovah our God is one Jehovah: {1) Or [Jehovah our God, Jehovah is one]; Or [Jehovah is our God, Jehovah is one]; Or [Jehovah is our God, Jehovah alone]}” (Deuteronomy 6:4 ASV)
“That they may know that {1} thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth. {1) Or [thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art etc]}” (Psalms 83:18 ASV)
“There is none like unto thee among the gods, O Lord; Neither [are there any works] like unto thy works.” (Psalms 86:8 ASV)
“{1} God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth. {1) Or [God is spirit]}” (John 4:24 ASV)
“3 So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the {1} rudiments of the world: {1) Or [elements]; 2 Pe 3:10, 12} 4 but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 that he might redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 So that thou art no longer a bondservant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.” (Galatians 4:3-7 ASV)
“30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found {1} favor with God. {1) Or [grace]} 31 And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob {1} for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. {1) Gr [unto the ages]} 34 And Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also {1} the holy thing which is begotten {2} shall be called the Son of God. {1) Or [that which is to be born shall be called holy, the Son of God] 2) Some ancient authorities insert [of thee]}” (Luke 1:30-35 ASV)
“21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23 And Jesus himself, when he began [to teach], was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the [son] of Heli,” (Luke 3:21-23 ASV)
Clearly god declares Jesus to be not Him but His son.
This son who was tempted more than once (though God cannot be tempted) said to his listeners but also to his adversaries that only god was to be worshipped. He learned people not to pray to him but to pray to his heavenly Father to Whom Jesus also praid and even one moment asked why God had abandoned him. In case He is God he often acted schizophrenic and than he could not leave himself.
But then he also did not tell the truth on many occasions (though we are told Jesus did not sin, so would have told the truth always):
“17 ¶ But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work. 18 For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and greater works than these will he show him, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom he will. 22 For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son; 23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father that sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that {1} hear shall live. {1) Or [hearken]} 26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself: 27 and he gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.” (John 5:17-27 ASV)
“27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful. 28 ¶ Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe. 30 I will no more speak much with you, for the prince of the world cometh: and he hath nothing {1} in me; {1) Or [in me. But that…I do, arise etc]} 31 but that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.” (John 14:27-31 ASV)
“Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, {1} Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. {1) De 6:13}” (Matthew 4:10 ASV)
“Jesus saith to her, {1} Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. {1) Or [Take not hold on me]}” (John 20:17 ASV)
“23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: {1} for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. {1) Or [for such the Father also seeketh]} 24 {1} God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth. {1) Or [God is spirit]}” (John 4:23-24 ASV)
“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, {1} Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end have I been born, and to this end am I come into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. {1) Or [Thou sayest] it, [because I am a king]}” (John 18:37 ASV)
God knows everything but Jesus even did not know when he would return to earth or who would be seated next to him in the Kingdom of God. In case He is God he would have known and would have withold the truth. In your answers you gave me to believe God would not do such a thing, which I also do believe. I also do believe God is a God of order, clarity and love and He would not mislead His people nor any man in His creation. He also would give everybody the opportunity to come to Him by letting them hear and udnerstand His Words. His Words say everything how it is and do not go around the bend.
About the questions you asked me:
1. see above , plus please do not confuse a matter, like righteuousness, wisdom, word by a person. The Word the apostle John is speaking about a something high ‘a god’ and was the promisse of The God about a god, like angels are called god, but also Zeus (Issou, hence the name Jesus taken in later years, meaning Hail Zeus), Apollo, Moses, Pharaoh and Jeshua (the person or man born in Bethlehm today better known as Jesus Christ)
Yah Chanan writes: (Gospel of the aposle John 1:1-3): In the beginning the Word having been and the Word having been unto God and God having been the Word he having been, in the beginning, unto God all through his hand became: and without him not even one being whatever became. (Aramaic New Covenant; ANCJ Released: 1996 Contents: New Testament Source Used: Exegeses Bibles (1996) Location: Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom) or “In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.” (Emphatic Diaglott – interlineary side)
Jesus as a high person (a god) was the fulfilment of God His Speaking (the Word) in the Garden of Eden
2. Can anyone create from nothing (Heb 11.3) in addition to God, or can only God create from nothing?
For me the verse you mention clearly speaks about God His Work and about God His speaking throughout the times or the ages. God has spoken all the time by His prophets and men of God.
It does not mention about any other person creating something, but every man or woman can create something. Look around you how children and adults create many things. but they all create from something that exist already. So did Jesus change things from that what existed alreayd, for example water into wine.
Heb 11:3 The Scriptures 1998+ (3) By belief, we understand that the ages were prepared by the word of Elohim, so that what is seen was not made of what is visible.
3. Can God choose not to know something or even not to remember something, or is He unable to control His knowledge?
God can as you intentionly want to point out not think about something, but He would not lie about it or would give false information. He would not mislead other people. This he would have done in case He is also Jesus.
4. Do you believe that God is Almighty, the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last?
I do believe God is the Almighty (Genesis 17:1; 28:3;35:11; 43:14; etc.)
About the Alpha and the Omega with your trinitarian thinking you take both persons to be the same,. But in scriptures there is clearly a difference in person;. You seem to mix those two Biblical characters: 1.יהוה {Jehovah} The Only One God + 2. יהושע {Jeshua} whom you call Jesus, and god but who is according to the Scriptures the son of God, which I consider to be the promissed Kristos or Christ the Messiah.
Because many translation tody only writing Lord and not making a difference (like inthe 1950-1960s) with LORD, Lord and lord, it becomes for many readers difficutlt to know about whom is spoken.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, {1} who is and who was and {2} who is to come, the Almighty. {1) Or [he who] 2) Or [who cometh]}” (Revelation 1:8 ASV) it is indicated clearly that it is the Lord God = Jehovah speaking:
Rev 1:8 The Scriptures 1998+ (8) “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, Beginning and End,” says יהוה “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
For the next verse look at the other verses to see who is talking about whom:
“And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.” (Revelation 21:6 ASV)
Rev 21:4-7 The Scriptures 1998+ (4) “And Elohim shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying. And there shall be no more pain, for the former matters have passed away.” (5) And He who was sitting on the throne said, “See, I make all matters new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and trustworthy.” (6) And He said to me, “It is done! I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End. To the one who thirsts I shall give of the fountain of the water of life without payment. (7) “The one who overcomes shall inherit all this, and I shall be his Elohim and he shall be My son.
We do know that it is God Who gave the world His son, gave him authority to do things in His Name and to reign His Kingdom. But after some years shall the son, who does not sit on God His throne, but next to HIm (again a sign that it are two different persons) hand over the Kingdom again to His Father, Who is a spirit. Jesus proved to his disciple he was no spirit by showing them his wounds, whilst a spirit has no flesh and blood.
“See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having.” (Luke 24:39 ASV)
In case Jesu is God he would always have done his own will but from Scriptures we do know Jesus always wanted to do not his will but the Wil of his heavenly Father the only One God;
“Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.” (Matthew 6:10 ASV)
“saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.” (Luke 22:42 ASV)
“I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 5:30 ASV)
Clearly jesus could not do anything from himself but God does everything from HImself and does nobody else.
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Marcus,
Jesus prayed to the Father, “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17.5), showing that Jesus did not come into being when He was born to Mary, and that He has the same glory as the Father. Should we glorify Jesus as we do the Father?
Jesus did not begin in Mary, but He has always been, that is why He could say, “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8.58).
Jesus and the Father are one, putting Him on the same level as God (John 10.30). Therefore, to say that the Father has authority over the Son, does not mean Jesus is less than the Father, even as your having authority over your children, does not make them less human.
Jesus is the Son of Man, making Him Man. Jesus is the Son of God, making Him God.
Jesus said worship God. Are we to worship Jesus?
I like that you quoted John 5, especially verses 21–23, in which Jesus explained that we honor the Father and the Son equally.
Marcus, you believe the Father is God, and that Jesus is a god. That is believing in more than one god. That is idolatry. How can you equate Jesus with an angel, or Zeus, or Apollo, or Moses, or Pharaoh?
Jesus is the Almighty, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Keep reading from Revelation 1.8 and you will discover that in Revelation 1.11, Jesus declared, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last.” He repeated in verse 17 that He is the First and the Last. Therefore, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End of verse 8 is Jesus, making Him the Almighty.
John 12.37 says that the people did not believe Jesus, which fulfilled Isaiah 53.1. John said again (John 12.39), that they could not believe because of what Isaiah said in Isaiah 6.9–10 (John 12.40). Then John said, “These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him” (John 12.41). When did Isaiah see the glory of Jesus and speak of Him? Have you not read what Isaiah wrote in Isaiah 6.1–5?
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Dear Don, to know that there are many gods worshipped is not idolatry, but knowledge. I do not adhere nor worship more than One God, the Elohim Hashem Jehovah. Jesus, according the Scriptures is called the son of God and “a god” wich literally means high person. …. When my pc shall be repaired I shall reply further to your remark. ..Until later.
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Marcus,
Knowing that there are many gods is not idolatry, but to worship any God besides the God of the Bible is idolatry.
Do you worship Jesus?
Sorry to hear about your PC.
I shall be awaiting your further reply.
Don Ruhl
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Shalom,
Thank you very much for your kind words and for willing to discuss this very important matter of the position of Jesus. We never should go light over that position Jesus deserves to receive.
I do respect Jesus and honour him for what he has done, but I do not pray to him neither worship him. Everything I have to ask I ask to God in Jesus his name, like he also advised us and prayed not to himself but to his heavenly Father and thought his followers to pray to his Father, the God of Abraham.
About the beginning of your previous remark:about the glorification of Jesus, it is God Himself Who gives glory to his only begotten son. The God Who does not tell lies, said about this man in the river Jordan that it was His son. (Matthew 3.17) God did not mislead us and did not say it was Him Who came down on earth so that others could see Him, which would contradict earlier sayings of God that He could not be seen by man and live.
Exo 33:20 KJV-1611 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see mee, and liue.
The apostle John does not put Jesus and God on the same level; They are one like we do have to be one; We being one with each other does not make us to be the same person as the other. I am one with my wife and children but they all keep their own identity. The same for the brothers and sisters in my ecclesia; I do hope we can be one with each-other, but for sure we stay all independent. also for my company and for my pupils I worked on it so that the members all became one with each other and united with the company or class. We also have to become one with Christ, but that does not make us to become Christ, neither to become God. Also becoming one with God like Jesus was one with his heavenly Father shall not make us to be God.
I love to see that you would also become united in faith and feel the oneness Christians should have.
Eph 4:13 KJV-1611 Till we all come in the vnitie of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Sonne of God, vnto a perfect man, vnto the measure of the stature of the fulnesse of Christ:
1Co 1:30 KJV-1611 But of him are ye in Christ Iesus, who of God is made vnto vs wisedome, and righteousnesse, and sanctification, and redemption:
2Co 5:17 KJV-1611 Therfore if any man be in Christ, hee is a new creature: old things are past away, behold, al things are become new.
In unity God has set us to be a flock (Mica 2:12)
Joh 5:21-23 KJV-1611 For as the Father raiseth vp the dead, and quickeneth them: euen so the Sonne quickeneth whom he will. (22) For the Father iudgeth no man: but hath committed all iudgement vnto the Sonne: (23) That all men should honour the Son, euen as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not ye Sonne, honoreth not ye Father which hath sent him.
These verses, from the King James version, tell us about the Father, not Jesus, Who raises up the dead and makes alive, so also the Son makes alive whom he will. With this is indicated that Jesus, by his ransom offer, has given the possibility to everybody to find life. Jesus paid the ransom. God has accepted his offering and as such allows the ransom being a return for the death and allowing the dead to come back to live.
For neither does the Father judge any man, but he has given all judgement to the Son. In case Jesus is also God than the judgement would be done by God. All authority is given by God to His only begotten son and we should come to see, understand, accept and respect that. for this offering, Jesus really doing not his own will but the will of his heavenly Father (in which in case he is God he always would have done his own will) Jesus did really die (God cannot die and Him faking His death would not proof any thing to the adversaries of God – Satan) therefore we should honour the son, even as we honour the Father. for it is told that the man not honouring the son, does not honour the Father Who sent him. Jesus according the Bible is the sent one from God, not God Himself.
Joh 20:21 ACV Jesus therefore said to them again, Peace to you. As the Father has sent me, I also send you.
Joh 17:18 ACV Just as thou sent me into the world, so also I sent them into the world.
(24) Truly, truly, I say to you, that he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life. And he does not come into condemnation, but has passed from death into life. (25) Truly, truly, I say to you, that an hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. (26) For as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to the Son to have life in himself. (27) And he also gave him authority to execute judgment because he is a son of man. (28) Marvel not at this, because an hour comes in which all those in the sepulchers will hear his voice,
For revelation of the apostle John you say it is Jesus who is saying he is the alpha and the omega, but sorry there you are misreading or missing the context of the other verses wheroff it is clearly that it is God speaking;
Rev 1:8 ACV I am the Alpha and the Omega, says Lord, the God who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.
Rev 1:8 The Scriptures 1998+ (8) “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, Beginning and End,” says יהוה {Jehovah}? “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Though understanding that Jesus is also the beginning of the New World he also could be considered the apha of that word and without him there is no existence in that world, and as such is he also the omega of that New World.but that is not what the apostle John is revealing here. He tells us that the Only One God, the Father of Jesus, Who spoke at the beginning of the world, is the Only Maker giving all life and the Supreme Being of the Beginning and the end. God id the Alpha and the Omega, not Christ Jesus.
Rev 1:8 ABP+ IG1473 amG1510.2.1 evenG2532 theG3588 AlphaG1 andG2532 theG3588 Omega,G5598 beginningG746 andG2532 end,G5056 saysG3004 the LordG2962 G3588 God,G2316 theG3588 being one,G1510.6 andG2532 the one who G3588 was,G1510.7.3 andG2532 the oneG3588 coming,G2064 theG3588 almighty.G3841
Rev 1:17 ABP+ AndG2532 whenG3753 I beheldG1492 him,G1473 I fellG4098 toG4314 G3588 his feetG4228 G1473 asG5613 dead.G3498 AndG2532 he placedG2007 G3588 his rightG1188 G1473 handG5495 uponG1909 me,G1473 saying,G3004 Do notG3361 fear!G5399 IG1473 amG1510.2.1 theG3588 firstG4413 andG2532 theG3588 last;G2078
Rev 1:17-20 The Scriptures 1998+ (17) And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead, and He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid, I am the First and the Last, (18) and the living One. And I became dead, and see, I am living forever and ever. Am?n. And I possess the keys of the grave and of death. (19) “Write therefore what you have seen, both what is now and what shall take place after these: (20) “The secret of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lampstands which you saw are seven assemblies.
Here we see resemblance with Daniel and God speaking to him. He re also we do find the Elohim Hashem Jehovah, the God of gods, talking to his servant who figuratively fell stunned upon his face to the ground, but God touched him, and made him stand up straight. This sent one form God erect we should have in front of our eyes. He delivered us. Not by doing as if he feared people and death (because God does not fear any man nor death, because they can do Him nothing, according the Holy Scriptures). Jesus really had enough reasons to fear man and death and to cry unto his heavenly Father why He would have abandoned him (in case Jesus is God he cannot abandon himself and there was no reason to sweat blood and to cry as such).[According to the Bible God is a Spirit and has no flesh and blood, so there would not be blood at all, and as such the Bible would not have told the truth like on many other occasions.]
It is really true what John writes for his time, and still counts for today. Though Jesus had said so much about his own position, the position of his Father and had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in him. You too seem not to believe that God is greater than Jesus and that Jesus could do not anything without his heavenly Father. You too alls seem not to believe the words Jesus spoke about his heavenly Father, nor the words God spoke about His only begotten son.
For example when Jesus talks about him going not to his own place but to the place of his Father, and we who should rejoice at him going to the Father: for the Father (Who is The God) is greater than Jesus Christ, who was at first lower than angels. Jesus who did not do his own will, did also not bring his own commandments and did not do his own works but the works of God, so that the world may know that Jesus loves not himself but the Father. By Jesus executing the commands which his Father gave him, we should put our faith in this man from Nazareth Who was sent by God.
Joh 14:28-31 KJV-1611 Ye haue heard how I saide vnto you, I goe away, and come againe vnto you. If ye loued mee, yee would reioyce, because I said, I go vnto the Father: for my Father is greater then I. (29) And now I haue told you before it come to passe, that when it is come to passe, ye might beleeue. (30) Heereafter I will not talke much with you: for the prince of this world commeth, and hath nothing in me. (31) But that the world may know that I loue the Father: and as the Father gaue me commandement, euen so I doe: Arise, let vs goe hence.
Many Christians, those who believe in the Trinity, seem to be making a liar and imposter of God and of Christ. Lots of things been said in the Old Testament contradict the sayings of Trinitarians and the way how they twist words from the New Testament. Often because of several translations not making it clear any more who is talking about whom, because often just the word ‘lord’ is used for the God, a god, Jesus, any lord, so that it becomes unclear when it is about the Lord God or the Lord Jesus. this is the blindness which has come over the world; But we should see the light, Jesus Christ, though also not forgetting there are many other lights ànd the even bigger light and beacon God.
Lots of trinitarians taking god to be Jesus and than comparing it to proof their right forget that Scriptures tell Who is talking, like in Isaiah not Jesus who you want us to believe, but here again it is God talking:
יהוה {Jehovah} sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the Hĕḵal. (2) Above it stood seraphim. Each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. (3) And one cried to another and said, “Set-apart, set-apart, set-apart is יהוה {Jehovah} of hosts; all the earth is filled with His esteem!” (4) And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke. (5) And I said, “Woe to me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unיהוה {Jehovah} of hosts.”
Mat 26:63-64 The Scriptures 1998+ (63) But יהושע {Jeshua} remained silent. So the high priest said to Him, “I put You to oath, by the living Elohim that You say to us if You are the Messiah, the Son of Elohim.” (64) יהושע {Jeshua} said to him, “You have said it. Besides I say to you, from now you shall see the Son of Aḏam sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of the heaven.”
Mat 26:63-64 KJV-1611 But Iesus held his peace. And the high Priest answered, and said vnto him, I adiure thee by the liuing God, that thou tell vs, whether thou bee the Christ the Sonne of God. (64) Iesus saith vnto him, Thou hast saide: Neuerthelesse I say vnto you, Hereafter shall yee see the Sonne of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heauen.
It is not Jesus in his high esteem sitting on God’s throne, but on an other throne next to the heavenly Father.
Luk 20:42 The Scriptures 1998+ (42) “For Dawid? himself said in the Book of Psalms, ‘יהוה {Jehovah} said to my Master, “sit at My right hand,
Luk 22:69 The Scriptures 1998+ (69) “From now on the Son of Aḏam shall sit on the right hand of the power of Elohim.”
From the above mentioned verses and other verses in the New Testament we know that Jesus is a son of Adam, a son of Abraham, a son of man, but also the son of God. this is what we should believe, but many still do not want to accept. they prefer to make him higer than a human being, because they do not want to believe a human being could be faithful to God. But that would mean that God created beings who never coudl satisfy HIm and even demanded things to them to which they never could aplly. This would be a very cruel God also having than waited such a long time and letting us wait still such an other long time. Do not forget itis not finished yet. After Word war III there still be an other 1000 years. If God had to come to earth, where He was already from the beginning, in the Garden of Eden, why did He not fix it straight ahead in the Garden of Eden, and did not let others suffer so much for the fault of those two human beings. Or why did He not destry those human beings and let the animals and plants live in peace, while now they have to suffer too, whilst they had done nothing wrong?
You may know that I have read what Isaiah wrote in Isaiah 6.1–5, and I have read all other prophets their writings several times. From those writings in Holy Scriptures Ido take it that they wrote down the infallible words of God, and that that God is not a misleading God but a God of clarity and order, with a Plan. I do belief that God His Plan will come in fulfilment and that Jesus is the best Way to God.
In my belief of the special position of Christ I want to do honour to him by following his teachings, and not those of men. We do not need human doctrines, there is the word of God which we can have at our hands in black and white, and should take the letters as such like they where written down, not in the way what people would like to see in it. So when there is written ‘son of God’ we should read son of God’ and not ‘god son’ or ‘god the son’. You shall see when you read the Bile in such way everything comes very clear as the brightest spring-water.
And yes we do have all the more reason to look up high to the one who is now a high priest but also our mediator between God and us and let our hope in him by whom is testified.
1Ti 2:1-6 KJV-1611 I exhort therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giuing of thanks be made for all men: (2) For Kings, and for all that are in authoritie, that we may leade a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honestie. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Sauiour, (4) Who will haue all men to bee saued, and to come vnto the knowledge of the trueth. (5) For there is one God, and one Mediatour betweene God and men, the man Christ Iesus, (6) Who gaue himselfe a ransome for all, to be testified in due time.
1Co 1:6 KJV-1611 Euen as the Testimony of Christ was confirmed in you.
Act 20:21 KJV-1611 Testifying both to the Iewes and also to the Greekes, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Iesus Christ.
Act 13:38 KJV-1611 Be it knowen vnto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached vnto you the forgiuenesse of sinnes.
Heb 12:23-24 KJV-1611 To the generall assembly, and Church of the first borne which are written in heauen, and to God the Iudge of all, and to the spirits of iust men made perfect: (24) And to Iesus the mediatour of the new Couenant, and to the blood of sprinckling, that speaketh better things then that of Abel.
Lets put our hope in Christ and love him for what he has done and follow his command to worship his heavenly Father as the One True God.
God bless.
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Marcus,
You quoted the following:
“Exo 33:20 KJV-1611 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see mee, and liue.”
You reasoned that this would mean that Jesus could not have been divine. However, that passage does not mean when man sees God that man is punished for seeing God, but that man cannot survive the experience of seeing God in His glory.
Can God make an exception to that rule?
You wrote:
“The apostle John does not put Jesus and God on the same level; They are one like we do have to be one; We being one with each other does not make us to be the same person as the other.”
Correct, but it does mean that we are both human; that is how we are able to be one.
Can you be one with your dog the same that you can be one with me? If not, why not?
You wrote:
“For revelation of the apostle John you say it is Jesus who is saying he is the alpha and the omega, but sorry there you are misreading or missing the context of the other verses wheroff it is clearly that it is God speaking”
Yes, it is clear that God spoke in Revelation 1 and that Jesus spoke as God. Jesus is the One who said He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, for the speaker refers to His resurrection (Rev 1.11, 17–18).
Finally, Marcus, I point out that you said:
“You may know that I have read what Isaiah wrote in Isaiah 6.1–5, and I have read all other prophets their writings several times.”
Good. Did you also read John’s Holy-Spirit-inspired commentary on Isaiah 6, found in John 12.37–41?
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